SPEAKER_00 0:02

What does it mean for vendors and dealers to create true partnerships, not just transactional relationships? In this episode of Insights, I'm joined by Casey Clemens, Senior Director of America's Professional at Sonos, for a candid conversation about what genuine collaboration between manufacturers and dealers looks like in practice. We dig into how Sonos is making innovative channel investments designed to improve the overall health of their dealer base. From partnerships with OneVision and Portal.io to their home sphere builder program. We discuss why they believe a healthier dealer ultimately means a better outcome for everyone involved. We also pull back the curtain on the development of Sonos Amp Multi, their new multi-zone amplifier that is being sold exclusively through the professional channel. We unpack the role that nearly 800 dealer interviews had to do with bringing this product to life. As always, this session was originally recorded live and includes audience questions and discussions. For access to the full video recording, check out the link in the episode description. Whether you're a manufacturer or an integrator, if you're looking to build the kinds of partnerships that raise the tide for the ecosystem you operate in, this conversation is a great place to start. Let's dive in. All right. We are live, and we're going to go ahead and jump right in. Thank you everybody for being here for the what is it, March edition of the Insights podcast. Excited today to jump into a conversation with Casey Clemens, the uh senior director of America's Professional at Sonos. Casey, thanks so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

I am very excited to be here, and not just because it's Friday, but uh always enjoy a good conversation with you, Jason.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, absolutely. It should be a lot of fun. And uh, like you said, it's Friday, so a great way to kind of wrap up the work week. So uh as we get ready to jump in here, I'll give a quick overview of the agenda that we're gonna cover today. Uh, before I do that, I just want to mention to everybody that is joining us live that we would welcome any comments, questions, or feedback that you have along the way. So please do feel free to drop those into the chat and we'll be happy to address any of those as they come up. So our conversation today is gonna cover a number of topics. Broadly speaking, we're looking at, you know, how structured dealer feedback influences product development, um, what thoughtful channel investment looks like. So we're really here at a high level to talk about this theme of you know, what does it actually look like for manufacturers and integrators to come together in a highly collaborative, mutually supportive relationship versus one that is more transactional. Um so as part of that, you know, what is what is professional support infrastructure look like? How do we best support dealers as manufacturers? And what do those dealers you know want and need from us, and hopefully with the integrators uh joining us today can help us um with that side of the equation, and then how manufacturers can align to create better outcomes together. Um so again, Casey, excited to have you here and looking forward to jump jumping in. Um I was thinking about a good place to start our conversation, and you know, I thought at a high level I'd open it up with you with a question of like what does it actually mean to you in your words to transition from just a vendor, transactional vendor, to a true business partner with the integrators that you're working with?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Yeah, uh good question. Um I think a vendor, you know, if you really just look at it in the most pure form, a vendor is just someone who makes a product or a software or service and ships it out. Right? The vendor's responsibility is to make sure that you have the product available to you when you need it, um, whether that be directly to you or through a distribution partner. Um, I think that's the most simple way of thinking about a vendor. And I think, you know, in a lot of ways, that is kind of just the basic requirement of being able to do business. I think if you want to think about what that means to be a business partner, it's more about how you actually utilize each other's unique strengths in order to help each other expand the breadth of the business that you can do or expand your ability to go out and and drive additional business. Um, like for us, I think what I think about a business partner, you know, for Sonos, one of the things that we have going for us is we have a lot of brand recognition, a lot of brand equity. And oftentimes I think about, you know, if we're a really good partner, what's what are the ways that we can utilize that goodwill that we have with our brand to go help break down barriers for the dealers that we work with? Because most of our dealers, you know, really get into this work because of the love of technology and the love of design and the love of customer interaction. And sometimes where uh that kind of limits the ability to do more business is just the ability to go out and actually create new inroads with uh adjacent trades or to go market their business. Um, you know, for us, I think about a good way that we're trying to lean further into helping our partners grow right now is like leaning into the design and build community. Um it's obviously a very large community, a ton of opportunity, but for a new integrator who might just be starting their business or might be in the first couple of years of business, trying to figure out actually where to make that connection point can be really difficult. But if someone like Sonos or another manufacturer that you work with have at least that contact and that point to say, hey, I can actually put A and B together for you, I think that's actually where you start to see a manufacturer or vendor become a business partner.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yeah, and I I think you guys at Sonos are in um an interesting category, and there's a few others out there like Ring and Eero that come to mind that have, you know, really well established consumer brand presence that can really help uh, you know, the channel that we operate in here as a more custom boutique channel, relatively speaking, like penetrate that awareness, right, of that of that broader customer base. So that makes a lot of sense there. I'm curious, like you know, as a big consumer brand like that, what is it about the pro channel that you guys look at and say, hey, this is a really important channel, this is critical to our success. Like, why not to play devil's advocate, just ride that consumer wave and kind of forget about the whole pro install channel as a whole? Like, what is it about the channel that makes that partnership compelling for you guys?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah, well, let's start away from the revenue side because this is a really actually large portion of our business, particularly in the Americas, but I think about it first from a brand perspective. You know, you think about the really glossy high-end imagery we sometimes put out there, particularly around our more premium products like an ArcUltra. Uh, and the reality is that type of clientele is genuinely best served by a professional installer. Um, most of the people who live in these multi-million dollar homes are necessarily not necessarily doing it themselves, even if we make uh a product in a lot of ways that actually is very simple and is designed in some ways to do that in particular categories. We know that the type of person who is living in a space that um is going to expect that type of white glove experience is going to be best served by somebody who considers themself a professional installer or an integrator because for them, it's not just about the one thing that we're going to provide. You know, I'm always proud that Sonos is has really chosen to master one thing, which has always been wireless audio, rather than doing everything. But since we don't do everything, we do require our products to work well with other products in the space. I think the most obvious one is the home network, right? And I think we saw a huge pivot, um, particularly through the COVID years, of professional installers who had been playing with the network or starting to make that a bigger part of their portfolio now, know that it's the core part of their portfolio because everything that they sell on top of that is all IP-based, is all running off of the internet in some way, is all making calls to the internet, whether that be through APIs or whether it just be to get basic information in order to run the system. So, you know, I I think the pro channel for us needs to be a big part of our business because if you are going to end up in these spaces that you aspire to as a brand like ours that thinks about creating these incredible audio experiences for listeners uh in every demographic, one of those demographics is definitely best served by the professional install.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah. Yeah, that that makes sense. Um let's get into some more specifics, right? So I think, you know, as a manufacturer, um, and I operate on that side of the table as well, you know, so I include myself in this. I think it's easy for any manufacturer to get up and say, hey, we take our channel seriously and we want our um our partners to feel that love. Um, but how do we like put that into action, right? And how do we actually make those actions back up those words? So I'd love to talk about some of the specific examples. And I think the low-hanging fruit here, the easy place to start is the partnership that OneVision and Sonos recently announced. So for anybody you know on the call who's not familiar with that, give them just a high-level overview. We don't have to make it a a sales pitch about the uh about the deal, but like give them a sense for what the partnership is, and then even more importantly, like as a manufacturer, when this landed on your desk, like how do you think about it? What's the calculus for you when you decide whether or not to invest time and energy in a partnership like this?

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Okay, yeah. I um so first and foremost, before I answer the one vision question directly, I let me ask answer the kind of the first part of that, which was you know, again, how do you actually show it? Right? It's one thing to come out here and say, for me to get on a podcast like this and say that professional install channel is important to us, is what what I should say, but it is what I mean. But how do I actually prove that it's what I mean? It's it's the investment that Sonos makes back in the channel. Uh and and and so I do think that there is a certain, you know, there's a requirement to go out and actually, for lack of a better term, put your money where your mouth is if you're gonna go out and say that this channel is important. Um, as it pertains to the One Vision program, this was a really good moment for us to take a look at at partnerships across the space where we said, like, I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of reference what I said earlier, that there are specific things that this channel just does well inherently. That when you think about the partners that you choose to work with within this space, it is generally because of the passion they have around the technology and about the experience and about working with clients. It is not always because that they they pride themselves on 24-7 customer care or on um the best financial auditing or on, you know, like I said, making some of these beautiful marketing campaigns that are it's a three-year program. So OneVision is a is a good program for us because we we said this is one of those areas, as I said at the beginning, that that a lot of dealers would suggest they struggle with in terms of being able to grow their business. Um, they don't struggle with taking the phone call, right? Like they're actually very good at that aspect. Where it becomes a hindrance for them is when it's happening often enough that it's taking time and energy away from looking to who's the next client we can serve, what's the new way we can position our brand to go generate new business. Um, it's also like the the very draining stuff that I hear all the time about the Saturday evening phone call, right? Like at the end of the day, we all pride ourselves on delivering great service for our clients. But I think we also would all like to know that at nine o'clock on a Saturday, I can finally sit down and watch a Netflix show and maybe get an hour to myself before I go to sleep. And when that's interrupted by, hey, right now the fourth television isn't turning on in the guest suite, um, the your whole Saturday plan kind of uh goes off the rails. So one of the things we we thought about was like, how do we do a better job? And we've kind of done it in a couple of ways. Uh, we we've obviously expanded our own pro support channel at Sonos, which is, I think, been very helpful, very well received by our direct dealers. But we also said, what are ways that we can do a better job of working with partners who also look at the whole system a bit more than we do? You know, OneVision, one of the things that's really unique about what OneVision does is of course you guys are looking at the whole bill of the system and not necessarily just focusing on one product and just saying, hey, we're gonna troubleshoot this one thing. Um, so we look at it for two things. We look at it as one is freeing up those cycles to be able and go and do the things that are more brand building or more revenue generating. And of course, working with a partner like OneVision, you also now create a way to create recurring revenue over time, which, you know, not only for the short term of having that kind of baseline revenue coming in, but you know, I go to a lot of these trade conferences and they talk often about what the transition period looks like. Uh, if you ever want to sell your business or what is that, uh, what does that plan look like? A lot of times that recurring revenue stream is one of those things that actually really increases the valuation of your business. So uh we looked at that and we said, hey, there's an opportunity for us as a company that has a fair amount of brand equity and awareness to go bring one vision out to the masses and make it more of a well-known uh commodity, especially amongst our direct dealers. Uh, and we can do so by offering a price break in order to begin that program with one vision. So I think oftentimes the hardest thing about any program, like a one vision for a dealer, is just that that upfront commitment can feel a little bit like, you know, it can be it can be scary, right? When you think about like, I don't know, I haven't proven out what this is going to pay me back in the end. So spending more money on something that isn't proven yet can be hard. So I think one of the ways we thought would be best was hey, how about we we reduce that financial burden to get started? That way it gives you a bit more of an incentive to at least try it out and get into the system. And hopefully over time that's gonna be something that pays for itself and then some.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, yeah, there's there's a couple things I'd love to react to there. So, you know, first and foremost, I I think the the idea of like looking more holistically at the business of your channel, like each individual company has its own set of unique challenges. There are obviously patterns there that apply, but the but the point is like for a company like Sonos or OneVision to say, hey, like we'd love for our dealer base to be more healthy and performant uh as a business because that benefits everybody, it requires like taking a more holistic view, right? You can't just drill in and uh you know start picking up the phone and saying, hey, why aren't you selling more product and expect that to actually yield good results? You have to understand that that these are you know, be a systems thinker, right? There's a whole complex system of things that are going on within the walls of each one of these businesses. And if if manufacturers can take a holistic view at that and say, okay, like in you in this example, Sonos looking and saying, hey, if we can just help our dealers be better at servicing and supporting their clients, that might be one degree of separation removed from helping them, you know, sell more Sonos product, but it's gonna help them run a healthier company and devote more time and energy to driving sales and installations. And and uh, you know, again, there's that one degree of separation, but it's still gonna help us. And again, it's a way uh for manufacturers to look more holistically at the health of the overall business and not just uh you know what's in it for us in terms of of dollars and cents. So that that's definitely, I think, like a really important point. I do want to launch a quick poll here and hear from the audience. So uh that poll should be up now, and it's essentially just like what's the number one thing that you like look at when you're evaluating whether a manufacturer is acting like kind of a true partner or more of just a transactional vendor. So if everyone could just take a minute to fill that poll out and kind of provide your insights, you know, options there, dedicated pro and support resources, better margin, co-marketing, lead generation, specialty products. And uh, you know, Casey and I joked before we started the broadcast today. Your answer may be all of above and all of the above, and feel free to, you know, drop that into the chat if if that's kind of where you land on that one. So um I'd love to transition here into maybe other examples. I know, Casey, that your partnership with OneVision isn't the only example of how you guys are making these kinds of investments in the channel. You have other partnerships, I believe, with like Portal IO, who we're great friends with, um Home Sphere as well. So give give some other examples of some of the concrete things that you guys are trying to do uh to make these investments in the overall health of your of your dealer base.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Yeah, yeah. And I'll I'll jump right in with the first example you gave, which is Portal I.O. They are actually uh the first partner that we did an official partnership with starting about two years ago at this point. Um same general concept of how we decided to form that partnership, which was again, what are some ways in which we can reduce some of the administrative burden on dealers who are really looking to go out and sell and design and install these systems? And one of the things we heard all the time was, you know, it takes a while to generate a proposal to be able to turn that back around to a client. You may have a great idea of what you want to do when you're inside the home or inside the business, but actually turning that around and making that digestible for the customer uh on a rapid basis is something that I think a lot of, particularly smaller integrators, struggle with because they just don't have the ecosystem to build on. So uh we went to Portal, we had we we've been working with them for a long time now in terms of, you know, we've always believed that what they have is actually a really good product. And we said, like, what would it look like to potentially offer, you know, a free license for some of our dealers if they are a direct dealer with us? And I think both of us thought this was a good idea for similar reasons of why we decided to partner with One Vision, which is let's make these tools more um readily available and more uh and make more dealers aware that these tools are things that can serve their business. And so it not only was that um program uh well received at the get-go, but obviously everything that they have done over the last couple of years in terms of, you know, AI automated proposals and things of that nature, uh, and and above and beyond that, not just the proposal thing. I can I tend to always think about that because that was always the thing that hooked me on it of like, gosh, I remember being a system designer and how much time it took just to write all this stuff down so that a consumer could understand why I was charging them$32,000 for a system. Um, but also all the stuff they're doing in terms of linking up your financial systems and kind of making some of that much easier for you as well. So I think a foot in the door there can be very, very helpful. And if as you grow with them over time, I think it's one of those things that, you know, to use the term again, we'll can reduce that administrative burden from you so that you can go focus on the things that you're truly passionate about. Yeah. Um, the other option, uh not an option, but the other thing I would actually bring up here is uh we actually have a partner with Home Sphere, a partnership with HomeSphere that started about six to eight months actually after we launched the portal proposal uh software partnership. Uh, we started working with HomeSphere because, as I mentioned at the top of our conversation, we have an opportunity oftentimes to get in front of a larger builder audience. Um, actually, our presence at the International Builder Show has only grown year after year over the last five years. Uh, we really recognize, particularly amongst the design heavy community, that there is a want and a desire to have a bit more of a turnkey solution in terms of making that part of what they do. We don't have a strong motivation to go and be the design and install resource on behalf of those builders because we have done uh a really good job over the last 20 years building out a really, really strong base of professional installers that we already work with. And so, as I mentioned earlier, you know, this you think about the the concept of being a good business partner, it's like here's where we can actually lean into each other's strengths. We might be able to facilitate that conversation because the brand awareness may have driven the builder to talk to us. But the reality is our partners, our professional installers, have the know-how to actually go out and implement that for them. Usually the biggest roadblock for working between dealers and builders is it's always a cost thing. And so oftentimes, you know, uh dealers obviously need to be protective of their profitability. Builders need to be protective of their profitability. So working with HomeSphere allows us to have HomeSphere pay out rebates on the back end for builders who decide to implement Sonos inside of their home builds. Um, this is a great way to not only uh incentivize our builders to work with our installers, but as we continue to come back to it, it reduces that administration burden that we continue to talk about why all these things I think make a lot of sense when you talk about why you might want to learn about any of these partnerships that Sonos is currently leaning into.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. Um nice transition into the end of our poll here. So I'll put the results up on the screen. And uh of those four options that we presented, so the the the top two are co-marketing and lead generation support, as well as uh specialty products designed for pro installers, which is kind of a nice preview of coming attractions. We're gonna get to some of what you guys are doing there uh most recently. But yeah, I think that that co-marketing and lead generation support jumping out as the the top option um plays nicely with what you know what you've been saying about the brand awareness. And then another thing that kind of struck me on this is that the the lowest option was actually the better dealer margins and rebates. So, you know, at the end of the day, I think that's consistent with this idea that it's not when you're evaluating the the quality and the health of this relationship between a manufacturer and the dealer channel, it's not about the transactional dollars and cents so much as it is about how are we helping each other grow the overall pie. I'd love any you know reactions that you have to to these to these uh responses to the poll that came in.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Um I I love the responses. Uh so uh you've got a great audience here listening in. Um because I I do believe sometimes there we we we do get wrapped around the actual around margin conversations. There's no uh there's no shock, I'm sure, to many people listening that that's it. And it's important, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:28

It's not that the money doesn't matter, right? Of course it matters, but yeah, like it's not the only thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

And and for what is worth there are certain businesses that if you're doing one or two projects a year that are millions of dollars and that's your business model, I can understand why that is the number one thing you want to focus on. But but I think for the average uh integrator, the average dealer, I I think it is it's really refreshing to hear us talk more about co marketing and and and again making these introductions because I think the the the larger your pool is that you can pull from, the larger uh amount of projects that you can actually complete, that's the thing that's actually. Really going to grow your bottom line as a business owner. So really, really great to see that. And I do think that there are other brands in the space that are also even leaning into how to actually help more effectively market on dealers' behalf. But, you know, again, like when I think about our brand and the and the brand name that we have, it is great when I have dealers who say, hey, actually, would love to work with you and partner on some co-marketing around putting the logo on our van because I think it's great that we have somebody who's that aligned with our brand that they want to show off that that is one of their lead brands. And I know for them it's it's a great thing to just have that brand recognition when they pull up in front of a home for the first time to actually do a walkthrough to say, like, hey, we are representing well-known brands. These are, you know, these are brands that have um a fair amount of uh of a known quantity to them. Uh and it takes away some of I think the some of the secrecy and the mystery of our channel sometimes. Yeah. I oftentimes as long as I've worked in this channel, still, you know, have my friends asking, so so what specifically do these, you know, the people that you work with do? And it's funny, you're always trying to help them kind of piece it together because at the end of the day, it's not terribly complicated, but they just don't have that same level of exposure that they do as yeah, everyday consumers to a retail store or to an e-commerce platform. And so I think um brand recognition right off the bat when you pull up to a home, I think can be very helpful in terms of breaking that ice.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah. If you ever figure that out, let me know. I've been in this industry for 20 years, and I feel like my parents still can't answer the question, what does Jason do for a living? Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

So I think it's only uh to decide on one name that we go back. I think you and I have been around long enough that I think we there are names that fall in and out of favor of what we'll that's a loaded topic for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

We'll we'll steer clear of that one today. Maybe maybe a dedicated episode. But um, so yeah, I do want to get into some of the stuff you guys are doing on the product side, but but before we do that, I have one more question about the kind of overall relationship angle, and that is just like how do you guys measure success? We've talked about the evaluation process on the front end of how you look at these and how you determine that you know, yes, this is uh worth some time and energy for us to jump into and invest in. Um, but then once that program is up and running, like what are you guys looking at? How do you determine the success of these initiatives um aimed at helping the the health of your of your dealers?

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah. Um the first answer is it's not always the easiest thing to measure. Uh and that probably won't be shocking to many people who work in this channel. That I think one of the things that we often have to deal with is there's a fair amount of opaqueness when it comes to data. Um, you do a lot of things based on qualitative feedback. The one hard quantitative thing that we've been able to do, and this actually, you know, this we didn't launch this in conjunction with OneVision, but we did decide a number of years ago, actually, kind of through the COVID uh years, is that we said we we really need to do a better job, not just measuring how happy our customers are using our product, but like, how do our partners feel about us as a business partner? So uh we have a dealer NPS score that we've been measuring since 2020. And uh so one of the ways that we are um pulling data back from our partners is like, how are you actually feeling about us as a business partner? And we're very mindful of the way we ask that question because you could ask, how do you like our products? Which is still a very different answer than how do you feel about us as a business partner? Um, and so we continuously do that on a quarterly basis. If you are a Sonos directorio and you've ever gotten that survey, I implore you to take it. We take it very, very seriously over here. Um, I personally review them with my team every quarter as soon as they come in because I want a real-time feel of how we are doing as business partners. And I know that's kind of the the the word of the day uh is being a good business partner. Like that's that's one way we do try to measure it. Not only do we look at the score, which of course is just kind of a directional nod to are we are we improving, are we declining? It's also uh we will go through the verbatim and actually look through each one of these comments and see, you know, where people are really excited about what we're doing and things that are really just irking people. So, you know, it we will never be perfect. I will always say that, you know, I'm I'm humble enough to say we'll never get we'll never get it right for everybody, especially given the the fact that so many dealers operate so differently from one another. But that is one area that we continue to look at is are the efforts we're making and the investments we're making in the channel actually helping people grow their business as it improving the perception of us as a business partner. That's the the one hard quantitative thing that we do look at ones right now.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

I think I think that makes a lot of sense. And um, I I would echo, you know, like it's so easy to ignore surveys, right? We get them, and most of us are really inclined to just kind of breeze right by them. But, you know, if you're if you're working with a company that's important to your business, taking a few seconds to fill those out is definitely really helpful in terms of closing that feedback loop. I'm sure, you know, I know you're out at a lot of industry shows as well, and so this these kinds of qualitative discussions that you're having with the dealer base, um, I'm sure play a huge factor in that as well. A lot of this is just feel and connection, right? So not everything has to be a hard number, but those surveys definitely do help in terms of like distilling things down to a number and helping these helping companies measure progress over time.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

It's the one reason that I really try to prioritize those trade organization events um and being out there because for me, my number one concern in my role is I never want to be the person that's stuck in my office so long that I start losing grip with reality, right? It's like because I'm not out actually talking to people, I start making judgment calls based on maybe information that was really good two years ago, but actually is not the it doesn't actually vibe with the current conversation happening in the channel. And I find those moments so useful, not only to have the conversations directly with the partners, but actually just to overhear how dealers speak to each other and what are the things that are actually motivating them or are really bothering them about the state of the channel. And that's a way for us also to think logically and hopefully creatively about how we can help solve some of those issues.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, well, let's let's shift gears and talk product. Uh, I'm a product guy, so looking forward to this, you know, uh portion of the conversation. You guys have uh the new AMP multi uh that's out there. This is a professional only product, and we'll talk about some of the uh philosophy behind that. But I thought that the best place to start this portion of the conversation would be to talk about the research and development process. So peek behind the curtains, you shared some of this information with me as we were preparing for this episode, and I immediately, you know, it it it piqued my curiosity. So talk about like some of the investments of time that you guys made in terms of developing this product and what did that RD process look like to make sure that you were develop developing a product that was actually in line with the needs of your professional dealers.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Yeah, um, let me start by saying this was not done in a silo, right? This was not a bunch of people uh working at Sonos sitting in a closed room and saying, we've got a great idea, let's build it. Um we had a general idea of what we wanted to do, and then we went out and did more user research um on a professional product than we've ever done in our history as a company. Uh we had almost 800 dealers be involved in some way, whether that be a direct interview, whether that be an on-site interview, where we actually went out and kind of saw how they were building racks, how they were currently using multi-zone amplifiers. Uh, we also have a really, really well put together professional uh sounding board, which, you know, I highly recommend uh if anyone wants to follow up with me after this call, you know, all of our direct dealers are welcome to be part of that where they can actually give real-time feedback on honest questions we're asking ourselves right now in terms of hardware and software. But this was uh this was a Herculean effort in terms of what the UR team around did around this. And there's a there's a kind of an internally famous video when we started to uh roadshow this product internally about hey, this is the next thing we're gonna build. And there was this great video that was kind of a super clip of you know people being interviewed on site. And the word game changer was said so often in so many of these interviews that we actually have a 30-second clip of dealers just going, game changer, game changer, game changer. Uh, and to me, that was like, you know, I knew how desired this product was for Sonas to finally do a multi-zone amplifier. But even for me, it was so validating to hear that directly from the people that they were going out and talking to. And, you know, there's something about when I go out or when one of my account managers or sales managers goes out and talk to our dealers, because of course, like their business is our vested interest, right? We we actually want them to grow. Like that, that actually is shows up well not only for them, but for us, but for our user research team to actually hear the same type of excitement around this product, I think was really powerful. So lots of lots of installer feedback. In fact, I just came from our Toronto event that was done earlier this week. And it was funny, one of our uh global trainers uh for Sonos was out there and doing really the deep dive on the technical stuff. And he kept saying, Hey, I I actually I do want to annoy you by the amount of times I tell you installer feedback today. Uh and it was because everything that we were talking about was all installer feedback driven. And even when you look at the way that the product is being positioned, number one, if you go on Sonos.com today, it's only tells you to find an installer, you will not be able to purchase uh an amp multi on Sonos.com. Uh right now it's only announced we will begin shipping in fall of 2026. But all the language is really about how it's actually made things better for the installer. It's a more seamless integration, it's easier to configure, it's running cooler, it's running more power efficient. You know, for a client, it's gonna show up like a Sonos system that they're used to using already. Mind you, it's going to be the best sounding amplifier that we've ever shipped. But a lot of the the work being done in terms of making that product great was about making it the best possible product for an installer to go out and incorporate into a system.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah. Yeah, and I and I realize that like I might have put the cart before the horse just a little bit, and let's so let's make sure everyone on here is probably familiar. But give like a quick overview. I I think this product is probably so. I used to be an integrator, and I remember in, you know, it's it's been almost 10 years now, so it's been a little while, but like we'd be you know filling up racks with uh Sonos amplifiers, you know, kind of stacking them up. It would take half a rack or more. And um, so I'd imagine at its core, this product is about compressing that down into a smaller rack footprint, getting multiple amplifier channels into one chassis, and the uh, as you alluded to, consumer is still experiencing it just like any other zone of Sonos, but it's built into this much more dealer-friendly form factor uh that's just uh a lot more accommodating in terms of the types of installation environments that the integrators are dealing with. Do I have all that correct?

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yes, yeah. I mean, you nailed right off the bat the number one reason we decided to build this was of course we were seeing so often from our installers these racks of, you know, back in the day it was the Connect Damp or the Zone Player 120. You know, it's obviously become the Sono stamp. Thankfully, when we launched Sono Stamp, we at least made that black so it fit into a rack on like our old, you know, silver and white boxes. Uh, so but what we knew was that there's a way to make that experience better. Um, what AM multi is, I say this very deliberately when I say it's up to four zones in a single chassis. And like the the words up to are important because yes, it can be four individual zones now coming off of a single box from Sonos, but it's also entirely configurable. It can be a two-zone, a three-zone, it could be a single zone. If you have eight speakers all in one area and you just want to actually always have that play as one zone, that product can actually act as a single zone. Got it. There's a lot of cool technical things going on with it. Obviously, we won't dive into that today. I will also humbly say I'm no longer the person who gets super technical anymore. Uh, we can definitely bring somebody else on to go really in-depth in terms of the uh the why and the how the product works, but um it is definitely a product that I have been uh nearly biting my tongue off to talk about publicly over the last couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Got it. Got it. And and zoom out a little and talk about just the philosophy behind going dealer only with a product like this.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah. So, you know, Sonos does make products that are just uh unbelievably simple in order to go and install, right? We we make a line of portable products that, you know, if you can set up a Bluetooth speaker, you can certainly set up a Sonos move. Uh, we have our all-in-one products that are very plug-and-play. We have our sound bars that up until the point of mounting are generally very easy just to plug in. Obviously, some people are less comfortable actually mounting things in the wall with screws than others. Um, but then there's certain products in which a certain level of skill, I think, is is necessitated because of the fact that the product is going to operate better when you have somebody who understands how to use it. Um, this started with Aero 100 Pro about a year and a half ago. The reason we chose Air 100 Pro as our first product to really utilize our professional install base as the exclusive channel was because um you want to talk about uh power budgeting for PoE with the average consumer and they're gonna look at you very blankly, right? Unless you work in IT or you are in A V, that the idea of uh budgeting power based off of a network switch is not something that you're thinking about. It's also the fact like with that product, it was really funny because you know, even for people who are used to POE, they were used to a you know a very static power draw, right? A camera is pretty much always gonna pull the same amount of wattage 24 hours a day. A speaker is a dynamic range, right? Something that's gonna go very quiet to very loud, it's gonna pull different power at different times. So that was the first, like, hey, we're we're really gonna test the waters by saying we're gonna bring this product to market that that really speaks to the strengths of the channel. At multi is very similar in that regard, where, you know, I I do think most people will find that when they first install it, it is really, really easy to configure. Where an installer's um experience becomes very valuable when you start thinking about more complex systems. You know, thermal management is not something, again, that the average consumer wants to consider when they're purchasing a product. Most people are not going down the spec sheet to find how much how much radiate heat is coming off of a product to make sure that they're not overheating things. So that's an area where, again, a professional installer is the best possible way to get this product because they are going to make sure that when they are designing your system, they're being thoughtful in terms of how they separate the product and how they actually introduce additional ventilation when necessary. When you know you get to a point, which you will with AMP multi, we we actually recommend that you should never uh do more than three units uh without some additional ventilation assistance. Um, because we just know that like everything, the all these pieces of electronics are creating some amount of heat. You don't want to create too much heat in a very small space for too long.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Cool. Well, we're down to just about 10 minutes here or so. And um, I thought that a good place to zoom out and can conclude the conversation would be to talk broadly about the customer experience. So you guys are uh you kind of major were made famous, right, by creating a great customer experience around multi-room audio. You really pioneered that. Talk about your philosophy overall as uh as a company when it comes to the importance of um creating great customer experiences. Uh how do you approach that? What are some of the challenges to being like really highly committed to that as an ideal?

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Yeah, well, there's the um there's the obvious thing, right? Anybody who makes a product wants it to be well liked when a user experiences it. Um, but for us, it's I think even more so important because we don't make one product, we make a system. And it's always been the whole idea of this since I started at the company almost 13 years ago was this idea of you know unleashing your music everywhere. And music became music and audiobooks, then it became music and audiobooks and and home theater. And but the whole idea still comes down to the fact that Sonos has always built a system that is made up of individual products. But for us, if the user experience isn't good with any one of those products, the likelihood of them experiencing a bigger and fuller system over time really uh the the chances are uh starting to dwindle if they have bad experiences. So for us, it's it's how do you create such a wonderful user experience that it's just a natural reaction that um when there's another opportunity to build above and beyond what you have today, that you're like, well, of course I want to bring this out on my patio now, of course I need this in the secondary bathroom for when people come over so they can still hear what's going on TV. You know, that that's why user experience is so important to us because realistically it is kind of the fuel that drives um the company growth. Uh so that philosophy has been very consistent for for so many years. It's actually one of the reasons that you still see us relatively um narrow in our lens in terms of where we want to focus, because I think one of the areas where people tend to uh fall flat as a manufacturer is you start to try to do everything for everybody. And as we know, that there are reasons that certain brands do so well in certain spaces because they genuinely understand the perfect user experience they're going for, rather than just, hey, let's ship the you know minimum viable product in each one of these areas and see what sticks. So um I think that's kind of the core uh of what user experience does for us in terms of how we go to market, how we build products, how we actually go, and even uh choose the two to tell the story of what Sonos does for people.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah, yeah. And it can be challenging sometimes too, you know, as a product company, like there there often, I'm sure, are situations where you have to make tough decisions between like prioritizing a great user experience or may maybe being able to ship a product faster or cheaper. And I know that you guys, you know, have to always be mindful of that, especially as a company that's like built a reputation on providing a great user experience, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yes. Yeah. That the you know, and I think that's one of those pressures that's very real for a lot of companies, right? There is a at it's at some point cost comes into account, but that those are the short-term decisions you make that have long-term ramifications. Um, you don't want to make a lot of decisions like that around your product that are short-sighted in order just to be more cost conscious because you know at the end of the day, to your first question, the user experience is going to be the thing that determines how successful or unsuccessful you are as a brand.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Yeah, absolutely. Um, as we wrap up here, I'd love your thoughts on like what what would you sort of advocate to in integrators and manufacturers out there broadly who might be listening to this as sort of you know, a piece of advice or a key takeaway in terms of working more collaboratively together to like raise the tide of the whole industry and and bring all the ships up with it.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Yeah. Um, well, first and foremost, start working together, right? I and and uh some people do already. That is just certainly not a broad challenge to everybody. I'm sure there are hopefully there are some people listening today that are doing a really good job of that already. But it for those that aren't, um get out of your comfort zone and figure out where you can do a better job partnering. Uh, I think one thing I've said a couple of times already during our conversation that I'll reiterate is just is look to where each other have strength, right? Don't don't try to be everything for everyone. Look to the partnership that you've developed, whether you're the integrator working with the manufacturer or the manufacturer working with the integrator. Where does the other person bring a unique strength to the table that actually helps you both grow your business? And so I think looking at things like that is is is I hope it's commonplace, but I might get the impression sometimes that maybe that's not how we always want to look at things. And that's not certainly a knock on the way people look at things, but I think sometimes just a matter of giving ourselves the space to start to imagine and think of what that long-term opportunity could look like if we just kind of get out of our business a little bit. Um, in fact, earlier when we were talking today, the the the old quote came up to me of, you know, we were talking about the investment you make in your business, that if if you're always working in your business, you're never working on your business. And I think this relates to this point very well, which is, you know, I would ask everyone to kind of pull your heads up every now and then and figure out like six, twelve, eighteen, twenty four months from now, if we start a conversation today, what could that look like at that time? You know, it's oftentimes I'm I'm reminding people that I work with that things in this channel move extremely slowly. Um, that is, you know, by the by the fact that we are such a uh diverse set of businesses uh and such a large diverse set of businesses within this channel that getting everyone to move in the same direction is a really, really difficult thing. It's almost an impossible task. But you know, the the more you can think about where you would like something to be two years from now rather than what you want to happen next week, that's where I think you start seeing some of these really interesting partnership opportunities between vendors and manufacturers happening. Um so yeah, and then I would just say like the obvious thing is, you know, whenever you start these conversations, just value each other, right? Like that's it. I know that's a real human answer, but that is that that's my genuine answer sometimes is you can you can tell sometimes when someone sits down and is ready to uh be combative or tell you what you need to do more for them, versus I always believe the most productive partnership conversations happen when when I can start by saying, here's my vision of where I'd like to go. I'd love to hear your vision of where you'd like to go. And rather than try to force one of us to go on other side one side of the aisle or the other, we're gonna find the places that we just are naturally going to align and we can lean into each other.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Yeah. And I I think having the conversation is the most important part. And that might sound like really obvious on the surface, but like what I mean by that specifically is like at one vision, I can I can you know freely say that like at like any business, we've we've not been perfect about this. Uh over the course of our history, we've had sort of ebbs and flows in terms of our um just leaning in and really going out there and soliciting the feedback and being open to it. And then also um The same ebbs and flows apply in terms of the customer base and the willingness to volunteer that and provide that difficult feedback. And so I think both sides have to be uh leaning in and soliciting the feedback and willing to provide the difficult feedback and have the uncomfortable conversations that sometimes need to be had. And what I can say definitively is that when I look back at the overall trajectory of OneVision over the last 10 years or so, the biggest gains that we've made as a company in terms of just being successful as an overall business in on any number of dimensions all correlate very directly to the periods of time where we were leaning in and having the uncomfortable conversations. So I think like that's such an important point that companies need to be out there soliciting that feedback. The dealers need to be, you know, involved, like leaning in and providing that feedback. And if that dialogue is happening, that's the key that I think really unlocks everything.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Well said. Yeah, no additional notes on that. I think it was really well summarized.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Yeah. Awesome. Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up. So, Casey, again, really appreciate you taking some time uh out of your day to be here and share how you guys are thinking about this. For anybody who's listening and might want to connect with you directly to ask follow-up question or learn more about what you guys are up to, what would be the best way for them to do that?

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah, of course. When it comes to our products, you can always go to Sonos.com for all the latest and greatest information. Even our pro products, we have a lot of really great technical assets available on the AMP multi or the Aero 100 Pro product development pages. Uh, I would also say for me, if you just want to get in contact with me, I'm very easy. It is my first name, dot my last name at Sonos.com. So that's Casey.clemens at Sonos.com. I welcome any feedback from the audience or any follow-up questions.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

All right. Excellent. Well, Casey, thank you again for being here. And to everybody who attended the live recording today, thank you as well. We know you've got a lot going on, and we appreciate you taking some time out of your schedule to be here with us. So, with that, we'll go ahead and wrap up this session, and we will look forward to seeing everybody on the next one. Take care. Thank you.